Thursday, August 18, 2005

I Believe This Is What They Call A "Fisking"

Fisk you, Heshy!   ;-)

Okay, I've never done this before. So let's have an experimental 'fisking' of everybody's favorite iber-rightwing self-proclaimed Hhareidi prophet, Heshy.
Yes, it’s sad to see the children of Gush Katif being torn away from their place of birth, their playgrounds and their friends. Why is G-d doing it? We know everything is for the good, even when it appears not so good.
Heshy begins his declamation with an expression of sympathy towards "the chidren of Gush Katif" who are being taken away from their homes and brought within the Green Line as part of Israel's Hitnatqut (Disengagement) program. He then, in good SAT essay fashion, ends the first paragraph of his post with the essential question of his lesson — "Why is G-d doing it?"
It’s the leaders of the modern religious zionist movement that are to blame. They made a pact with the devil and enemy of Torah and G-d. That enemy is secular zionism. Foolishly, these religious knitted-kippah leaders got their flock to put their emotions and trust in the enemies of G-d.

Many of you here are too young to remember how anti-Torah were the founding secular zionists. They were worse than the reform or conservative heretical sects.
As usual, Heshy is claiming to know the mind of God (or at least the access codes to Ramhhal's Heavenly Karma Komputers). Also as usual, he blames this trauma on Religious Zionism. The question is, though, when he says "they made a pact with the devil" is he just using a figure of speech based in the Euro-Christian American cultural environment in which he lives? Or does he actually believe that Secular Zionism is a demonic, malevolant and metaphysical force that exists independently of and in opposition to the Creator of Worlds?

Here, they want to show the goyim that Jews believe in evolution, organ donation (just a glorified way of supporting autopsies) and being more modern than Orthodox.
Wait... I don't get it... Heshy, did you finish your thought? Did I miss the if, then? So-called Modern Orthodox leaders in America want to "show the goyim that Jews believe in evolution, organ donation...", okay, I got that... and the Religious Zionist leaders want to what? The same thing? The use of "Here," in the second quoted paragraph seems to indicate an approaching contrast. Here the MOs want blah-blah, and there the RZs want blah-blah-blah — but there's no blah-blah-blah!
Both movements are failures. They are both not in line with G-d and his Torah.

Now, G-d in His mercy will save these good misguided young people in Gush Katif and all the other settlements. They will become disillusioned with zionism and become true G-d serving Jews, black-hat Chereidim. This is G-d’s will.
Okay, so both movements are failures. But Heshy still hasn't said what it is about Religous Zionism that isn't "in line with G-d and his Torah"! Maybe he'll get to it later. It's interesting how Heshy keeps on pushing the black hat so hard. What is it about the hat? Is it a "get in free" card to Heaven? Or does he just believe that it represents certain ideals? We need to do some experimentation with this... get a few case subjects, say, a pseudo-Yeshivish YU guy who dresses monochromaticly but learns secular studies; or a t-shirt-and-jeans-wearing Jew who shares Heshy's Antizionist philosophy but doesn't see borsalinos or gartls as necessarily following. And where are the women? Are they all in the kitchen, making me some pie?
It pays to turn over a whole community just to save a Jew’s soul. To some people it sounds strange, but this is G-d’s way throughout history. The settlers are being rescued from their atheistic partnership with secularism and they will be relocated to a more frum area away from the beach. Once they have joined an authentic Jewish community, they will no longer send their kids to the army so that they won’t become cannon fodder as they did in the Yom Kippur 1973 war by putting hesder yeshiva kids on the front line. This was done by that evil modern day Zerubavel known as Golda Meir. The same was done to the Sfardic Jews as well.
I hope when Heshy talks about "turning over" communities he's only referring to the bloodless (כן יהי רצון) Hitnatqut, and not to, say, the Porrajmos, the Crusades, or the Hhurban of the First and Second Jewish Commonwealths.

"Atheistic partnership with secularism" — does he mean that the Religious Zionists are sinning by teaming up with their fellow Jews who happen to be Secular Zionist Atheists? Or maybe he means that by teaming up with other human beings, instead of with God, they are in a sense rejecting God. That could work. But wouldn't that just mean that they're following the principle of ein somekhin ‘al haneis, 'we don't rely on miracles'?

I don't know enough about Israeli military history to comment on his accusation that hesder soldiers were used as "cannon fodder" during the Yom Kippur war, but...
"that evil modern day Zerubavel known as Golda Meir"?!
Uhm, Heshy? ZERUBAVEL??
The righteous Persian governor of Judea?
The grandson of King Yehoyakhin, and would-be Mashiahh?
You sure you don't mean IZEVEL?
(sigh... what was it a high school Tanakh teacher of mine said about the negative consequences of hhareidi yeshivas not teaching enough Tanakh?)
How can anyone religious entrust their 18 year-old kids to an army that’s anti G-d? By an army that for almost 60 years has been beating up orthodox Jews who were protesting against Shabbos desecration, autopsies, grave desecrations, etc.
Maybe they're trying to change the system from within. Infuse some Jewish values into it. Or is that not a good reason, given that Heshy is Hhareidi, and therefore believes in isolationism?
Gush Katif was taken away because the focus was LANDWORSHIPPING and not issues like Shabbos, modesty and G-d worshipping.
Finally, something we can agree on! Thank you, sir, for working in your own distinctive way to disseminate the ideals of Prof. Yesha‘yahu Leibowitz, who like you was a prophet, but actually managed to warn the people of the future consequences of their actions instead of being a Monday Morning Quarterback!
It’s always been a problem with modesty in the religious zionist movement. Many of the young are changing, but we have to be as modest as the arab women are, otherwise G-d’s wrath comes upon us. Every girl should wear a skirt covering her kneecaps, sleeves covering elbows; high neckline covering collarbone, stockings and married women should cover their hair. Men, too, should dress properly when going to shul and on Shabbos. If this had been done 100%, then Gush Katif would be in Jewish hands. EVERY SETTLEMENT MUST INSTITUTE A DRESS CODE.
Ah hah! Here are the women! Interesting that he talks about everyday tzniusdik dressing for women, but only mentions men's clothing in relation to going to shul and Shabbos. What about the men dressing modestly? Tell all those half-naked Gush Katif boys with their hippy pei’ot, bare torsos and orange shorts to put some clothes on! Although Heshy does talk more about men's dress in other posts, so I guess he doesn't have to go into all the intricate Falkian details of men's clothing here. Although this reminds me, I owe y'all a post about my Dressing for Davenning Dilemma... gotta remember to write that up.

Also, I heard Rav Goldvicht of YU once claim that God is letting the Arab-Muslim world kick us around because of the merits they have due to 1) their devotion to tznius (physical modesty) and 2) their pride in their religion. He specificly contrasted Muslims' willingness to whip out a prayer mat wherever they are and daven in public without regard for looking silly, while Jews play all sorts of 'hide in the phone booth' games because we're afraid that people will stare at us or think we're weird when we pray.
I received calls from friends in Gush Katif that they got the Rabbis there to speak about women’s modesty. But this needed to be done months ago and was only done now the last days of the eviction. In the Holocaust, there were Jews who prayed the last minute instead of fighting the reform heretics years before.
Here we are, the obligatory Sho’a reference. And with that, we will invoke Godwin's Law. The End.


Anonymous Anonymous said...

good job but you're "feeding the heshy troll"

8/18/2005 11:56 PM  
Blogger Steg (dos iz nit der šteg) said...

well, i thought that since hey he feeds so many people at his big shabbos meals, he deserves a little feeding himself ;-) .

8/19/2005 12:04 AM  
Blogger Nachum said...

I find it ironic that he accuses the Religious Zionists of making deals with secular Zionism, when in this situation especially but in others as well, I see Religious Zionists sitting outside the government and haredi parties within it. Hmmm!

8/19/2005 10:17 AM  
Blogger Shifra said...

Ugh the whole thing is so horrible I could re-fisk it myself and never hit the the same points twice!
So I'll just to choose one that speaks to me personally (although it's slightly beside the point here)

Heshy refers to the MO support of organ donation as "just a glorified way of supporting autopsies." Ummmmmm WHAT?
My brother recieved a lifesaving heart transplant as a teenager - and I assure you that the heart (while it was most likely not from another Jew) was not taken from the boy who died as an excuse to do an autopsy on him...
That notion is just insane.
It's about pikuach (I'm sure you can add a "q" in there for me Steg) nefesh not cutting people up out of curiousity.

Man, you'd THINK a conspiracy theorist like Heshy would be into the idea of autopsies...

8/19/2005 10:23 AM  
Blogger Steg (dos iz nit der šteg) said...

Do we have any idea where Heshy got this idea about organ donations from? Do Christian Fundamentalists have similar objections? After all, they don't believe in piquahh nefesh (there's your Q!) when it comes to abortions, maybe they don't believe in organ donations either.

And what's the problem with autopsies, anyway? Wouldn't finding out what (or who!) killed someone, in order to save/protect other people, justify it? I need to do some research on this topic.

8/19/2005 10:46 AM  
Blogger Nachum said...

I think he's using fossilized Charedi arguments: There was a scandal over unauthorized autopsies in Israel a few decades back, and that probably remains the biggest issue in his mind.

8/19/2005 11:15 AM  
Blogger Shifra said...

Ooh you gave me a "q" and raised me two "h"s.

I'm not sure that Christians believe this way. As I understand it (minimally at best) the whole issue is about Kavod ha Mais and keeping yourself together for techias hamasim. You'd THINK that if God could raise the dead (and presumably some will have been dead so long their hearts have since returned to the earth) that ressurecting a heartless organ donor would not be a big deal...

In any event there is a HUGE taboo (although I hate to use that word when halacha may be involved) about doing autotopsies even in criminal cases. I'd like to know why as well...

8/19/2005 11:18 AM  
Blogger Shifra said...

PS googling Christianity and Autopsy will get you a lot of links to the Terri Shiavo case.

8/19/2005 11:20 AM  
Blogger Mar Gavriel said...

Steg and Askshifra:

There's a daghesh hhazaq in פִּקּוּחַ, hence piqquahh.

8/19/2005 11:28 AM  
Blogger Steg (dos iz nit der šteg) said...


Except that i generally don't encode gemination in my סתם transliteration scheme ;-) .

Does this mean your computer is working again?

8/19/2005 11:32 AM  
Blogger Steg (dos iz nit der šteg) said...

Nachum and Shifra:

Thanks for the information! Maybe i'm too quick to blame right-wing Jewish attitudes on influences from right-wing Non-Jewish attitudes. In a lot of cases that seems to be the case, though.

I love to use the word "taboo" where halakha is involved! It makes Judaism sound more like the exotic indigenous ethnic religion it is, as opposed to the universalist blasé Western religion it isn't.

8/19/2005 11:33 AM  
Blogger Mar Gavriel said...

Does this mean your computer is working again?

No. I'm in the library.

I love to use the word "taboo" where halakha is involved! It makes Judaism sound more like the exotic indigenous ethnic religion it is, as opposed to the universalist blasé Western religion it isn't.

Amen. Have you read Mary Douglas? Actually, I think I mentioned her work to you last Sh(n)abbos.

How's the following translation (done off-the-cuff):

והצרוע אשר בו הנגע בגדיו יהיו פרומים וראשו יהיה פרוע ועל שפם יעטה וטמא טמא יקרא

And the afflicted fellow, who has the wound, shall have tattered clothes and disshevel'd head, and he shall wrap around his moustache; and "Taboo, taboo!", shall he cry out.

8/19/2005 11:53 AM  
Blogger Mar Gavriel said...

Except that i generally don't encode gemination in my סתם transliteration scheme ;-) .

That's really too bad. Gemination bears both semantic and audible meaning-- at least in all the "cool" pronunciations.

BTW, Godol Hador is a hypergeminator. As one wag pointed out, with his diqueueueueduququququququq and mahahahahahahahalokhet and (now, potentially) piqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqquququququqquququqahhahahahaahhhhhhhh, he could win any scrabble game.

BTW, what exactly is a "wag", anyway?

8/19/2005 12:16 PM  
Blogger Jack's Shack said...

Heshy is a piece of work. Oy.

8/19/2005 12:33 PM  
Blogger Nachum said...

Steg, no doubt many right-wing practices are so influenced. I just don't think this is one of them.

8/19/2005 12:39 PM  
Blogger Mar Gavriel said...

Heshy is a piece of work. Oy.

Hey, all-- remember R. Dovid Offhisrockerski, from Koton Hador?

8/19/2005 12:43 PM  
Blogger AMSHINOVER said...

1st stop feeding the troll
Ramhhal's Heavenly Karma Komputers LOL!
that evil modern day Zerubavel known as Golda Meir"?!
i guess tanach is not part of torah true G-d serving Jews, black-hat Chereidim.
Prof. Yesha‘yahu Leibowitz, is like heshy both hate the soul of yahadus.and by the way the satmer rebba and YL agreed on many items.
Rabbis there to speak about women’s modesty lie.tzneous is never an issue in the shtochim

8/19/2005 1:19 PM  
Blogger Steg (dos iz nit der šteg) said...

M. Gavriel:

I have not read Mary Douglas, but her work looks interesting based on a quick web search.

Wow, i never even thought of tum’a as taboo before! Usually i use it in the context of "modesty taboos" (i.e. tznius) and "food taboos" (=kashrut).

I do not know what a wag is.


While i do agree and/or sympathize with many of Leibovitz's opinions, i am not actually a full-blown Leibovitzian. Or a'ian. In this case, i agree with the critique of religious obsession when it comes to phsyical objects like the Kotel or the Land itself.

8/19/2005 2:27 PM  
Blogger Mar Gavriel said...

"modesty taboos" (i.e. tznius) and "food taboos" (=kashrut).

The Torah calls treyf animals "tamei". And in reference to some kind of breach of "modesty" (if that's what it is), the Torah says "ahharei asheir huttamma'a" (Deut. 24:4).

8/19/2005 4:02 PM  
Blogger Mar Gavriel said...

Sorry-- please remove duplicate.

8/19/2005 5:42 PM  
Anonymous Angel one said...

When it comes to Heshy's house, not all the lights are still on. You could pick apart every single post he makes and show how ludicrous it is, how he makes circular and arguments based on nothing more than his say-so. I've been lurking on your blog for a little while now, and you're too intelligent to waste your time with him. Taking apart Heshy's posts to show how nuts he is is like pointing out all the holes in swiss cheese - we all know they're there.

8/20/2005 10:45 PM  
Blogger Steg (dos iz nit der šteg) said...

Angel One:

Thanks for de-lurking!
I normally wouldn't go around fisking people (as you can see, this is the first time i've ever done it). I was just shocked by the use of "Zerubavel" for "Izevel/Jezebel"; that's pretty much the main point of the fisking. Everything else is secondary.

8/20/2005 10:56 PM  
Anonymous rivka said...

funny how obsessed people get about women's modesty. Assuming my decision to be showing my (incredibly attractive) elbows is incorrect, I'm not sure why it would make God so angry.
besides, even chareidi girls fall short of muslim standards-- they wear stockings below the knee, and *gasp* show their hair before marriage

8/24/2005 8:30 AM  
Blogger Justine said...

A wag - I believe it is short for scallywag. As in, a bit of a rapscallion. A fun-loving mischief.

As for Christian fundamentalists, it depends on the brand. The fully hardcore trippers think that all illness is cause by the devil, so if you really believe then you'll be healed by the (insert Texan accent) blood of Jeezus.

My understanding is that most Christians are reasonably open to the idea of organ donation.

9/14/2005 7:45 AM  
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