Wednesday, August 01, 2007

שמע בני מוסר אביך

Oh, come on! Gimme a break.

Why does Hhakham ‘Ovadya Yoseif keep on saying things that make him seem not so hhakham? This goes far beyond some other famous rabbis' lack of tact in explaining halakhic concepts...

From the Jerusalem Post:
Yosef made the statement in the context of a major Halachic campaign he is currently engaged in as to when women should recite the blessing over the Shabbat candles.

Many prominent Ashkenazi rabbis, along with a few Sephardic sources, have ruled that women should say the blessing after lighting the candles. However, according to Yosef, the blessings should be said before the candles have been kindled, similar to other blessings.

Yosef blasted the opposing view, saying it was based on the opinion of "a few stupid women. A woman's knowledge is only in sewing," he ridiculed. "Women should find other jobs and make hamin (cholent) but not deal with matters of Torah."

In addition, he admonished women for following in the steps of their mothers in the order of the recitation of the blessing instead of adhering to his opinion.

"It has to be announced that women should not listen to the voice of their mothers or grandmothers not to continue with this mistake," he warned.

What ever happened to ואל תטוש תורת אמך?

Mishley 1:8 / Mishley 6:20

18 Comments:

Blogger Shoshana said...

Sigh. Just another anecdote to put in my "being frum has turned me into a feminist" file.

7/31/2007 12:52 PM  
Blogger Lipman said...

What ever happened to ואל תטוש תורת אמך?

He wasn't talking in general. This particular point is more an issue of existing minnek vs. halachic conclusion based mainly on written sources than a problem of his image of women.

By the way, the minnek of kindling before the broche is rather Ashkenazzic, isn't it, so he's probably addressing a minority of non-A women and rather defending their tôres immeche in a larger sense against more recent changes.


When I sent this to Sießche yesterday, she answered "Huh?!" and went back to sewing. (Okay, she went back to leading a senior management meeting and later asked if her answer was appropriate.)

8/01/2007 5:14 AM  
Anonymous rebelwithacause said...

Right. I am gonna quit my job right this moment, run out and learn how to make hamin and learn how to sew, cook, clean etc. lmao.

8/01/2007 7:55 AM  
Anonymous Mar Gavriel said...

When I sent this to Sießche yesterday, she answered "Huh?!" and went back to sewing. (Okay, she went back to leading a senior management meeting and later asked if her answer was appropriate.)

What is her practice with respect to the candles?

8/01/2007 10:02 AM  
Blogger Noyam said...

What I find interesting is this: the issue of "over l'asiyatan" with candles is problematic (goes the non-OY thinking) because once the woman makes the bracha it will be shabbos, and too late to light a fire.

OY's halachah requires that a woman have in mind to specifically delay the entrance of shabbos for her until after she lights the candles.

Ironically, his position requires women to be more knowledgeable, his opinion on women notwithstanding.

8/01/2007 1:40 PM  
Blogger Lipman said...

MG,

er, good question: light, cover eyes, make broche, I think. No waving though, I think.


Noyam,

whether making broche makes Shabbes is not inherent, but purely a matter of convention, like whether you make Shabbes in shul with Lecho-doudi, Shir mizmer or Borchu.
In other words, if the convention about lighting is different, there's no need have that in mind. I think it's not even a matter of family or local minnek, but of "the usual" for the individual and so, having done it like that the last three times should do, unless the idea was everytime that this is an exception.

I also think a woman doesn't really have to be more knowledgeable if she's obligated to have that in mind; she doesn't even have to know why.

8/02/2007 6:27 AM  
Anonymous rebelwithacause said...

I also think a woman doesn't really have to be more knowledgeable if she's obligated to have that in mind; she doesn't even have to know why.

Why not? I want to know why. We are not robots, we should know the meaning behind everything.

Do you think all women are dumb?

8/02/2007 9:59 AM  
Blogger Lipman said...

Work on your reading comprehension, man! :-)

By "she doesn't have to" I meant simply that it isn't an indispensable precondition - nothing more. It is possible to have in mind "I explicitly don't accept Shabbes yet" without knowing the halachic basis. The same is true for a man who lights, obviously.


Do you think all women are dumb?

Even on the basis of your mistaken understanding above, that doesn't make sense.


[NB: I suspect this is you, MG, trying to provoke me for curiosity and fun, but for the use of an existing blogonym ©.]

8/03/2007 3:11 AM  
Blogger Yehu said...

Usually, I make the Cholent in our house. And I honestly wish my wife could sew. My mom always used to mend my socks, (now she says she can!) and I can't bring myself to throw 'em out.

He's known to get carried away when he's hot on a subject. And he ain't the only one as well.

BTW - how do you know how the Latin "j"'s were? AFAIK they're pronounced differently in all Latin languages.

8/03/2007 10:38 AM  
Blogger Steg (dos iz nit der šteg) said...

Jehu:

all of the "j"s in the Romance languages can be traced back to the original Latin /j/ through straightforward sound shifts. i'm pretty sure there were contemporary linguists in the Greco-Roman world writing about how their languages sound like, but i'm not familiar with that literature.

8/03/2007 10:47 AM  
Anonymous rebelwithacause said...

It is possible to have in mind "I explicitly don't accept Shabbes yet" without knowing the halachic basis.

Right, so it's possible to carry out a mitzwa as a robot.

Do you think all women are dumb?

Even on the basis of your mistaken understanding above, that doesn't make sense.

That's okay, you don't have to answer that question. You are one those men who immediately assumes women are inferior retarted creatures even before getting to know them. Whatever floats your boat and keeps your ego bloated.

8/03/2007 12:07 PM  
Blogger Steg (dos iz nit der šteg) said...

rebelwithacause:

i suggest re-reading what Lipman said. i have no idea where they heck you got the idea that he's saying that women are inferior, or that women are too dumb to understand how accepting shabbos works.

if you keep on abusively harassing him for something he didn't do, i'm going to think about deleting your comments.

8/03/2007 12:14 PM  
Blogger Noyam said...

if you keep on abusively harassing him for something he didn't do, i'm going to think about deleting your comments.

Noyam: Steg you dropped your law over here.

Steg: I didn't drop it; I laid it down!

8/03/2007 3:39 PM  
Blogger Lipman said...

rebel [even though you're probably not MG after all, I still think this is a fake, BTW],

no problem to state this expicitly: No, I don't think all women are dumb. (And to anticipate your next joke: No, this wasn't meant ironically, as in "but 99% are" or the like.)

I won't engage in this further - if you're making fun by twisting my words, you'll by definition always be a step ahead, and though it severely damages my reputation in the eyes of more casual readers, answering won't make sense.

If you're serious, I can't get through to you. Even if I take your cognitive abilities into account, I won't be able to get through your walls of ideology.

8/05/2007 8:51 AM  
Blogger Yehu said...

"i'm pretty sure there were contemporary linguists in the Greco-Roman world writing about how their languages sound like, but i'm not familiar with that literature"

Dats interesting... I never got to liguisitcs to such a proffessional level, but I always wondered how pronounciation of olden days was(is) reconstructed. I know the Yavets siddur has a whole lenghthy introduction on the subject, but all you can make out in the end is that the nekudes and alefs and ayins are all different, but how to pronounce them is unclear, as they didn't have digital recorders back then. I guess not even Bartok's wax cylinder recorder.

BTW, while we're on the subject, you once wrote not to snicker about "mount hor", and for the life of me I couldn't figure out what was there to snicker about and I forgot to ask, even after I saw that according to the Targum you, Mechon Mamre and Artscroll were all wrong. But in retrospect is it that special accent that I was supposed to snicker about?

Also, if I'm not mistaken Spanish j is h, French is like ours (hence my suspicion that it's a Norman import to English), Italian is pretty similar, Rumanian I don't know but I think it's like German (ye)... but I guess you're right it's the professionals' realm here...

Lipman - do you have a consistent system for your transliteration? Sounds intersting. (Are you the same lipman from Brisker Active-X?)

BTW Steg - can you explain how to harss someone non-abusively?

8/05/2007 9:06 PM  
Blogger Steg (dos iz nit der šteg) said...

Yehu:

The הור ההר bad joke was about the name of the mountain's unfortunate similar sound to a certain English word.

Spanish |J| depends on dialect -- in some it's like ה, others like a soft כ or a ח. French |j| is a "zh" sound, as in azure or usual.

hmm.... non-abusive harrassment would be nagging, or excessive looking for attention. things along those lines.

8/06/2007 12:59 AM  
Blogger Lipman said...

[…]ehu,

no, I'm not on that list - must be an imposter.

Mostly, my transcriptions aren't random, but I use several systems according to what makes sense in a given context. (And obviously, depending on what pronunciation I want to represent.) From among common Roman-letter languages, English is the most difficult if you want to transcribe foreign words without three-volume footnotes. Even the French with their strange writing habits are less ambiguous.

8/06/2007 6:32 AM  
Blogger Yehu said...

Even the French with their strange writing habits are less ambiguous.

LO.L Lipman, that was a good line.
You're wright about English... archiving are caving in to schisms, as now you may well know it's the crest of a knave...

Steg - "non-abusive harrassment would be nagging, or excessive looking for attention. things along those lines." Darn, you always have a teiretz!
Reminds me of the joke about someone who was, ummm, robbing a house, and the husband found him hiding in a closet so he he goes, what in heaven are you doing here? "waitng for the bus." -
"Darn, they always have a teirets!"

8/06/2007 8:58 PM  

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